Nov 28, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48
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#81
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Realm of the GWAMMs
Guild: Teh Academy [PhD]
Profession: W/
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Umm, I've only farmed greens in Factions, but I know that I killed Sskai and Ghial many times, that they always held the skin of their green weapons, and that I did NOT always get the green drop. Sometimes I got swords and staffs that those two were certainly not wielding. And I'm not sure how the above argument adds to the OP's.
Sorry for not quoting...I can't from my home PC.
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Nov 28, 2007, 03:25 AM // 03:25
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#83
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Oct 2005
Profession: R/D
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mountain
Umm, I've only farmed greens in Factions, but I know that I killed Sskai and Ghial many times, that they always held the skin of their green weapons, and that I did NOT always get the green drop. Sometimes I got swords and staffs that those two were certainly not wielding. And I'm not sure how the above argument adds to the OP's.
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they changed the way it works, but for about maybe first 2 months after factions came out, if you saw a boss like sskai holding their weapon, it was a MUCH MUCH higher drop rate (upwards toward 100%).
anyway, that argument (and there's others like the mob wielding a vamp weapon and you seeing lifestealing pop-up when you get hit) adds to the fact that loot is determined on instance/zone creation. it's not random when the mob is killed.
HOWEVER my main problem with this theory is the whole "zoning in at same time." if I had to guess, i would bet their random number generator is seeded with milliseconds or smaller increments. so you zone in at 6:30:16.003 and your friend zones in 6:30:16.005 -- to a human, thats exactly the same time, but thats 0.002 seconds difference to the system is plenty of time and the loot would be seeded with different numbers and you'd get two different sets of random results.
also, you'd expect ncsoft would take this type of thing into account. you don't just seed it with a timestamp. you also include a unique character ID, or account ID, or something else just to prevent exactly this type of thing from happening.
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Nov 28, 2007, 05:25 AM // 05:25
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#84
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Furnace Stoker
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VERY interesting. I suspected something like a predetermined variable which determined the quality of the drops being generated upon the creation of an instance long long ago (soon after Factions release). Since then I've had loads of examples that confirmed the theory, both before and after the antifarm code changes were implemented. No evidence disproved this theory.
Now I have a couple questions to the OP:
Have you noticed if the very same drops dropped from exactly the same mobs/groups?
Were the gold/purple drops with the same mods exactly identical? I mean same req, mod values and inscriptions?
Have you checked the server's IPs on both players performing the test? It may be an important factor - I think that only the instances created on one physical server computer within a very short period of time (1 second?) may produce such effects. Different servers may have varying system clocks (so you cant sync) or other varying factors determining the pre-generation of items.
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Nov 28, 2007, 07:18 AM // 07:18
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#85
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Academy Page
Join Date: Aug 2005
Profession: W/E
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We tried it here. 55 Necro SS + 55 Monk SoJ.
- place: Fahranur the first city HM
- We sit in the same office (yeah, we play non-worktime )
- We were on the same server, same town, got a screenshot
- we entered the same time
The results:
1st group of three Skales dropped 1 purple sword, 1 Half digested boots, gold.
We both got the same "type of drop" (1 purp, 1 white, gold), but they were not the same (I got purple Short Sword, Necro got purple Brute Sword), I got 103 gold, Necro 92 gold.
The next few groups were even more different, and after a few more groups (hitting the massive group just outside the city) we stopped shouting at eachother what dropped for us
In addition, Necro got a chest spawn with the massive group, I didn't. I got a gold Sephis Axe from Undead, Necro white stuff.
It didn't work for us, but we'll try again - non-worktime
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Nov 28, 2007, 07:32 AM // 07:32
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#86
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: California
Guild: None
Profession: Mo/N
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Thats crazy shit..
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Nov 28, 2007, 08:17 AM // 08:17
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#87
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Mar 2007
Guild: Company of Corpses [CoC]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth
VERY interesting. I suspected something like a predetermined variable which determined the quality of the drops being generated upon the creation of an instance long long ago (soon after Factions release). Since then I've had loads of examples that confirmed the theory, both before and after the antifarm code changes were implemented. No evidence disproved this theory.
Now I have a couple questions to the OP:
Have you noticed if the very same drops dropped from exactly the same mobs/groups?
Were the gold/purple drops with the same mods exactly identical? I mean same req, mod values and inscriptions?
Have you checked the server's IPs on both players performing the test? It may be an important factor - I think that only the instances created on one physical server computer within a very short period of time (1 second?) may produce such effects. Different servers may have varying system clocks (so you cant sync) or other varying factors determining the pre-generation of items.
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Who's/what's "OP"?
Anyhow, yesterday we we're on the phone for the entire run so we could
have a fast communication.. and yes, the drops came from the very same groups.
The mods were also identical, BUT.. now, to another interesting thing, all my items, including the blues and whites, were worth more at merchant.
Now, I'm "Favoured" and my brother is "Lucky"... could this have something to do with that?
I'm not saying either way here but it is the only difference between us I can think of.
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Nov 28, 2007, 11:53 AM // 11:53
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#88
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Feb 2006
Guild: Kindred Order of Souls [KOS]
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OP = Original Poster
P.S. Keep up the good work.
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Nov 28, 2007, 12:01 PM // 12:01
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#89
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Mar 2007
Guild: Company of Corpses [CoC]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightow
OP = Original Poster
P.S. Keep up the good work.
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ah, of course, thanks.
And will do!
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Nov 28, 2007, 01:41 PM // 13:41
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#90
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Dec 2006
Profession: Mo/
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I'm pretty sure the Lucky title would not affect your merchant prices, but if you identify all weapons their value automatically increases by about 30-50g, and that includes white weapons. Maybe you ID'd everything and your brother didn't?
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Nov 28, 2007, 01:47 PM // 13:47
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#91
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Feb 2007
Guild: [PIG]
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sry, i didnt read it all (i dont have time, im at work, lol) but it seems that the best way to test things like that is to just do it more times.
i believe you guys, ive been farming for sometime and i generally dont notice a difference on how they are killed. ive tested this out in UW, ive done farms where i only take on 1 group at a time and ive done farms where i get mass aggro. the out come is generally the same, it is only the time that is different.
some more test results would be nice. if you guys do that run regularly perhaps just jot down how many golds you got that run and how many total drops you got (IDing them would really matter for this kinda test). A larger test pool would help in figuring this out (or ask the anet ppl for a hand in this, lol). Anyway just a thought.
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Nov 28, 2007, 01:48 PM // 13:48
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#92
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Feb 2007
Guild: [PIG]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexed
I'm pretty sure the Lucky title would not affect your merchant prices, but if you identify all weapons their value automatically increases by about 30-50g, and that includes white weapons. Maybe you ID'd everything and your brother didn't?
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as far as total $ earned per run, that is random on how well they ID, i think the best way to figure it out is the number of drops instead of dollar amount (imo), since this is a post about how to figure out the loot scaling, drop quantity would matter more then a lucky bunch of IDs
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Nov 28, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30
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#93
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Mar 2007
Guild: Company of Corpses [CoC]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexed
I'm pretty sure the Lucky title would not affect your merchant prices, but if you identify all weapons their value automatically increases by about 30-50g, and that includes white weapons. Maybe you ID'd everything and your brother didn't?
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We both made sure to ID everything before we made the drop for the last screenshot, just to see the similarities on
mods and so on, and that's when we noticed the difference in value on every of my items compared to his.
Now, this is the first time we noticed this so there's no way telling if there's a patterns or just random.
Further testing is surely needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boarderx
some more test results would be nice. if you guys do that run regularly perhaps just jot down how many golds you got that run and how many total drops you got (IDing them would really matter for this kinda test). A larger test pool would help in figuring this out (or ask the anet ppl for a hand in this, lol). Anyway just a thought.
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There will be more runs and results for sure, and hopefully runs with more
purple and gold drops to have even more to compare.
lol, yea Anet would probably happily assist in this research.
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Nov 28, 2007, 10:36 PM // 22:36
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#94
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Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Retired from GW until GW2
Profession: A/P
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the second run proved it for me.
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Nov 29, 2007, 07:11 AM // 07:11
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#95
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Pre-Searing Cadet
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Whr is this area ?? XD
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Nov 29, 2007, 10:18 AM // 10:18
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#96
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: ManitobaShipyards Refit and Repair Station
Guild: (SFC)Star Fleet Command,(TDE)The Daggerfall elite,(SOoM)Secret order of Magi
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Actually the best place to test it would be Min Cho's Estate on HM. Its a soloable mission and its very easy to sync it if you've ever synced anything else in GW before.
However the pictures show something else more than it shows that loot is predetermined when loading the instance and its something that goes back to the very beginning. The seed your chars are born with when made and that there 2 chars have similar seeds. Since they didnt have the exact same loots though very similar.
Oh BTW to the goon that thinks its impossible that the game can generate the loot when you kill something doesnt know how fast and how much a computer can do things.
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Nov 29, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03
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#97
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Mar 2007
Guild: Company of Corpses [CoC]
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manitoba1073
Actually the best place to test it would be Min Cho's Estate on HM. Its a soloable mission and its very easy to sync it if you've ever synced anything else in GW before.
However the pictures show something else more than it shows that loot is predetermined when loading the instance and its something that goes back to the very beginning. The seed your chars are born with when made and that there 2 chars have similar seeds. Since they didnt have the exact same loots though very similar.
Oh BTW to the goon that thinks its impossible that the game can generate the loot when you kill something doesnt know how fast and how much a computer can do things.
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Oh, man you lost me there.
Could you possibly explain the seed-part a bit further? Sounds interesting
and something I wanna know more about, for sure.
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Nov 29, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36
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#98
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Spain, of course
Guild: Gamer EspaƱol[GE]
Profession: N/Mo
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NOTE: this post is extra long and "highly" computer engineering filled, so read the "CODE" section with patience or skip it for a fast and simplier reading ^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skinny Corpse
Oh, man you lost me there.
Could you possibly explain the seed-part a bit further? Sounds interesting
and something I wanna know more about, for sure.
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I think that he's talking about computer engineering hehehe.
To generate a random number, you (human) can say "6!" without thinking, but a computer cant do that and just does a pseudorandom calculation starting from a initial value, called "seed". Normally, random calculations take the pc datetime or microprocessor ticks as this "seed" or initial value.
Applied to GW, (i think that) he means that when you create your char, a seed (well lets think that GW takes datetime as seed) is generated, for example 12122007050559 (december 12 2007, 05:05:59) and the other person creates the character at almost same time, like 12122007050601 (december 12 2007, 05:06:01). As you see, most digits of those values are the same, so their "seeds" will be almost the same, and calculations from those could be similar too, like multiply that for 10.
According to the things i know about comp. engineering, GW wont calculate the item dropped when you kill any enemy. Why? Lets put another example:
Imagine that ME, as an ele/a, wanna farm something and go to the vaettir tour farming. Imagine again that i am a "pro" and lure 1 big groups of... lets say 34 vaettirs. Imagine the calculation procces for any vaettir I kill... then multiply them for 34. And now, imagine this worldwide asking GW servers for the drop... too much chaos .
I think that things should be simplier and its "predefined" on a list and is from that list where GW took the droppable item before drop it.
---- my bet about GW calculation ----
## take a deep breath before reading ##
sorry about using programming language code
I think that it can be understood even with that hehehe.
Code:
// Entering zone
/* Each zone should have some arrays with things that could be
dropped like those, where any object has a weight, meaning its
probability, from example 0.05 of 1 will be the elemental sword drop percentage */
goldenItems={elementalSword, platinumBroadSword,dragonScythe,...,colosalScimitar};
collectorItems={glacialStone,dinosaurBone,diessaChalice};
whiteItems={crap, crap, crap};
purpleItems={....};
dyes={....}
// Calculates the number of things that could be dropped
Player.calculateDroppedItems(itemArray,zone.getNumberOfFoes(),zone.getTimesEntered());
// Calculation could be like:
/*
goldenItems = 200foes * GWUnknownFormuleOfDrop % 15timesEntered;
whiteItems = (200 foes - ObjectsThatAreGolden)* GWFormuleOfDrop % 15timesEntered ;
*/
// Gw stores the things that could be dropped, ie:
/*
goldenItems=3;
collectorItems=12;
.....
dyes=2;
totalItemsYouCanGet=goldenItems+.....+dyes;
*/
/*Then they activate a trigger when any creature dies
(just check if zone.getNumberOfFoes() goes down from the last check)
Lets think that you killed 5 foes
*/
for each foe in that 5{
/*
check itemsYouCanObtain, and if its 0, you get nothing
else just do a random number from 1 to N,
being N the number of arrays i write above,
for example 1, which will be golden items.
then, using the weighs, we calculate the drop from the list and... drop it
foes to end calculation -1;
goldenItems -1;
itemsYouCanObtain -1;
*/
}
/* the trigger will be activated anytime the game checks
that number of foes has decreased
*/
What i mean in simple words? Just things are pre-calculated when you enter into a zone, no matter how much you kill, how much time, if done one-by-one/in group, etc. I think that this calculations are faster than having counters on what is killed and those things. And if you reenter the zone, you could see that GW doesnt charge it inmediatly hehehe. examples of my thoughs?
What happens if we go dual/triple/...? just any local instance calculate it "lucky-drop", transform it into a code and send it to the server, so GW could add together the group drops at "group list of droppable items and its quantity".
This could be an explaination to things that happens when you kill something in groups and GW just "semi-freezes" for the calculations(to me & my hardware at least). It could be "randomly" select, what to drop from the predefined list of items.
Hope this could be understood ^^
/salute all
PD: Yeah i forgot to explain how greens are dropped but... it will be the same. just check that currently killed foe was a boss hehe. Hope you get it
Last edited by ragnagard; Nov 29, 2007 at 06:06 PM // 18:06..
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Nov 29, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01
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#99
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Mar 2007
Guild: Company of Corpses [CoC]
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Wow, thanks, ragnagard! Great explaination, I really appreciate it.
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Nov 29, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58
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#100
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Dec 2006
Guild: Glob Of Ectospasm [GoE]
Profession: Me/Rt
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hmm
weird, but possiblee
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